B/S/T rule addition

[poloboy821]

I believe that it is in the best interest of both parties involved in ANY b/s/t related deal on IOG that the editing of posts be restricted to only ADDING additional info and that all original content must be left in the threads first post. I belong to another forum that strictly enforces such a rule and it keeps the community very honest!

Rough Draft:
All threads within the B/S/T forum must remain in the original posted state. The original price and description must be kept in the first post, you may add info such as price drops, additional pictures, sold/pending, or any other info related to the thread but you CAN NOT delete info, original price, or remove the post all together once the thread is posted.

EDIT: In order to ensure people follow this rule, we must implement a very strict ZERO tolerance moderation of this. If someone edits they are warned and given 24hrs to remedy(putting the original info back in) or else they get a temporary vacation from IOG.

[Megatron]

Good idea. :tup::tup:

I second the motion!

[4N2NR]

I support this too!

[GOD]

I am in flavor of this.

[killerwgp212]

to ease the moderation of this just have it set that the thread poster can not edit the first post. period ;)

[GOD]

to ease the moderation of this just have it set that the thread poster can not edit the first post. period ;)

I like to be able to list an item as pending or sold during and after a a transaction.

Another downside to this rule is changing the price becomes a no-no.

[toolittletoolate]

to ease the moderation of this just have it set that the thread poster can not edit the first post. period ;)

I like to be able to list an item as pending or sold during and after a a transaction.

Another downside to this rule is changing the price becomes a no-no.

Also how many people really read a whole B/S/T thread? We have to have the OP able to edit the 1st post, to add pics, feedback, and more info.
Right now this is a good idea with some issues as far as enforcement goes.

[WillyW0nka]

Not a fan of this rule at all. It's unfair to the sellers. If a seller takes pictures that don't do a marker justice (say taking pictures of a black marker indoors) then takes new pictures outside at a later date that better show how the marker really looks, they should be able to remove the old pictures.

Likewise, if new parts or upgrades are replaced with old stock parts, they should take new pictures AND replace the old ones. If someone opens a thread, sees the marker with all kinds of upgrades that aren't included, they're going to be butthurt when the OP tells them they're not included with the gun at that price.

When finalizing a deal, the buyer and seller should agree on EXACTLY what is being sold and how much is being paid for it. For example, when I finalize a deal, I usually have a PM saved in my inbox where "UserA" sends me a message saying "Ok, $45 shipped/paypal'd via USPS priority for a black Item1, silver Item2 and blue Item3?" and I respond with a "correct, once received I will ship out as soon as possible" or something of the sort.

You're doing too much asking for all of this. It's unnecessary and it places extra burdens on the administrators to do what the forumers should already be doing to protect themselves.

[gamer565]

If the thread is old enough, you can just use google cache to see what was originally posted

[big_daddy_d]

Ehhhhhhhhhhh

[oldironmudder]

Also how many people really read a whole B/S/T thread? We have to have the OP able to edit the 1st post, to add pics, feedback, and more info.
Right now this is a good idea with some issues as far as enforcement goes.


Bill, I will read the whole post every time there is something interesting, something I want or getting. Then out of boredom & nothing else to do, I go though old BST posts, not like last year but with in the past 2 weeks, & read them again to see if there is anything good I missed.


As far as Clint's idea, it a good idea but a bad one at the same time. Some of the other members made good points about it. Im on the fence about it, I can see the good & the bad from it. Its been a while since I messed with it, but cant the original poster & mods check a post to see what has changed? Maybe some how tweak that so other members can see it or something.

[poloboy821]

Rough Draft:
All threads within the B/S/T forum must remain in the original posted state. The original price and description must be kept in the first post, you may add info such as price drops, additional pictures, sold/pending, or any other info related to the thread but you CAN NOT delete info, original price, or remove the post all together once the thread is posted.

EDIT: In order to ensure people follow this rule, we must implement a very strict ZERO tolerance moderation of this. If someone edits they are warned and given 24hrs to remedy(putting the original info back in) or else they get a temporary vacation from IOG.



Likewise, if new parts or upgrades are replaced with old stock parts, they should take new pictures AND replace the old ones. If someone opens a thread, sees the marker with all kinds of upgrades that aren't included, they're going to be butthurt when the OP tells them they're not included with the gun at that price.

.

The bold portion answers your question that is underlined.

God: all you simply do is put the new price next to the old one $300..price drop to $250..dropped again to $200.

[WillyW0nka]

The bold portion answers your question that is underlined.

God: all you simply do is put the new price next to the old one $300..price drop to $250..dropped again to $200.

No, it doesn't. Your post says the OP is not allowed to delete, only add. If I'm a seller and I've got crappy, unflattering pictures of my marker, I want to delete them when better ones become available. Also, if I choose to put stock parts back on the marker and sell the upgrades separate, I'm going to want to take new pictures of the marker in its stock form and remove the pictures of the marker with upgrades so as to avoid any confusion as to what the buyer will be expecting to receive. As a seller, I should be allowed to do that. I see no reason why a seller shouldn't be allowed to remove information from the thread as long as the intent is not to deceive a would-be buyer.

The intention of this rule is good, but it creates more problems.

-edit- And the "price drop" thing is unnecessary. It makes no difference whether they write "$200" or "price lowered from $275 to $200".

[Six_Shooter]

I agree with WOnka on this one.

I can see the good intent behind it, but in the end could make threads cluttered and confusing, especially for someone (buyer) who hadn't been following the thread from day one.

If I sell something, I either want to remove it, or replace the price with "sold", there's no need to leave it in the thread.

What people can do, and I do this myself is save the thread that has the item they are buying an item that it is listed in, for reference, if something were to go wrong.

Overall, two thumbs down for this idea. Mostly because I don't see how it creates any "fairness", and we already have enough B/S/T rules that I don't agree with.

[toolittletoolate]

Bill, I will read the whole post every time there is something interesting, something I want or getting.

Post yes, but a whole thread? I can't see a regular reading through 2+ pages of posts to get info. Hell, I wont even do that.
And I personally can't think of not being able to edit my 1st post.
This rule will pretty much turn our B/S/T section into eBay w/o the bidding.

[4N2NR]

I think the intent of the original idea is being missed. What I am understanding is the suggestion for the "no editting" or "deleting" of information pertains to once the item reaches the "pending" or "sold" status. A for sale item can be updated up until the point of sale and then no more. That way, when the item arrives 10 days to 2 weeks later and the buyer feels that what is in his hands is significantly different than what was in a deleted picture or editted description can be reviewed before a lengthy conversation ensues on what condition, inclusions, exclusions, changes and alterations or omissions may have happened in the post purchase process. Perhaps this idea could be adopted in a slightly modified form as a buyer suggestion to get everything captured in a PM or email as an added step. I have often gone back to reference what I have received to what I was purchasing to verify whether or not I thouight something was different between the two. When there are edits or deletions that becomes more difficult if not impossible.

[poloboy821]

dom: it is one thing to update pictures PRIOR to selling an item, but there is no reason why you would need to change the original photos AFTER it is sold. Also IMO why would someone go through the trouble to make a thread and use crap pictures in the beginning? The original photos can be simply reduced to links and the new photos embedded if you are truly concerned about the "quality" of your pictures.

As stated in my OP this concept is not new at all, i belong to a firearms forum that has this rule and it is strictly enforced and works very well. The original post should stay the same and not be allowed to be deleted or modified beyond REASONABLE changes. For someone to completely delete all text within a thread and the photos after an item is sold is not acceptable IMO .

EDIT: 4N2NR i could not have said it better myself!!

[WillyW0nka]

dom: it is one thing to update pictures PRIOR to selling an item, but there is no reason why you would need to change the original photos AFTER it is sold.

Well your original post doesn't actually say that, it just says the thread must include all of the original information and none of it can be removed.

Change the wording of your rule in the OP to say that information can not be changed/removed AFTER the item is already sold unless to mention it as pending or no longer available.

The last problem of course would be enforceability. How on earth are moderators supposed to keep track of all the edits in the B/S/T threads to make sure they're only editing what they're supposed to? It makes it much easier on them to just educate the BUYERS and SELLERS.

Buyers:
-When purchasing something, re-state in a PM EXACTLY what it is you're paying for and how much money you're sending
-When sending payment via Paypal or money order, make sure there is a record of what you sent and who you sent it to, and write down in the "notes" box in paypal or include a letter with the money order describing what the payment is for and who it is from

Sellers:
-Make sure they know exactly what you're offering before they send payment, as to avoid ANY confusion about what they're expecting
-If you can make a video of something showing it works, do so right before you ship it out. Be sure to include the time/date somewhere in the video (i.e. hold a phone in front of the camera)
-Ask buyers to include information when they send payment. I hate getting a blank money order in the mail for $50 from some guy named Steve dated 3 weeks ago. I sell a lot of stuff, Steve needs to include his Screen name and what he's paying for when he sends me money!

I am fully aware that there are dishonest B/S/T'ers on the web that will do what they can to screw people over and make a quick few bucks, but I have a feeling that a LARGE portion of these deals that go sour could simply have been avoided by better communication between the buyer and seller.

[poloboy821]

because our B/S/T is not "high volume" like pbn for instance, we have a core community here that has proven itself as trust worthy in the b/s/t community. we can all see when a post has been edited , and after a sale has happen it is even easier to see what has been updated or removed. It is enforced the same way our FB policy is enforced except using bans as a means of punishment. It is just another way to protect our community here on IOG

[Daigz525]

To everyone who has expressed opinions on this, the moderators have a discussion going on the private moderator forum to determine the best course of action for a rule change like this. We will keep this thread posted as we talk with Crank and come to a conclusion.

[Ryan10]

I would have to say NO on this due to people constantly pm'ing me when the item is long gone but the info and pics are still in the first post. Happened to me on pbn alot of times and got sick and tired of the pms when the item is long gone/sold.

Also, when the seller sells something and if this rule takes effect and seller accidently deletes the picture of thread from photobucket's site, then, pretty much screwed and banned from IOG?

This is going to be ongoing and its pretty much a 50/50 out there

[Six_Shooter]

I would have to say NO on this due to people constantly pm'ing me when the item is long gone but the info and pics are still in the first post. Happened to me on pbn alot of times and got sick and tired of the pms when the item is long gone/sold.

Yep, I see this being a problem. Even when the word "sold" is added in the original post. People don't seem to read that.

Also, when the seller sells something and if this rule takes effect and seller accidently deletes the picture of thread from photobucket's site, then, pretty much screwed and banned from IOG?

Good point. Some people have limited space to host pictures and will delete old pictures that are no longer relevant.

This is going to be ongoing and its pretty much a 50/50 out there

That seems to be the case.

[4N2NR]

I see your valid points from a seller's perspective and how annoying it gets for items that have long been sold. However, I don't think the no edit would have to last for an eternity. It would just need to be there long enough for the buyer to use as a reference upon item receipt to determine there are no significant discrepancies between what was thought to be purchased and what was received. It would be advantageous to the seller, in my opinion, especially for the buyer who doesn't read and comprehend the ad so well. Those are the ones who expect a like new in box item when it was described as so beat it was like it never had a box. If the ad remained unaltered until the buyer posts a confirmation in the sale thread that all is well or the seller can say delivery confirmation indicates it was received on such-n-such a date with no buyer concerns or has received positive feedback then it could be altered. I personally save a copy of the picture(s) of any items I may want to compare. I'll even do a screenshot of the ad sometimes (depends on the seller and feedback).

[lopez17]

Here's my take on this. It's pretty much what I've said to the moderator staff.

We have a pretty robust forum. It's a pretty trustworthy group of traders (buyers and sellers) that deal in the trading space. When you're a moderator/administrator, you generally want to evaluate the rules you're putting in place to ensure that the effort expended (by the moderators or members) at least equals the return you get. For example, it's not a lot of effort to require members to post pictures or links to their feedback. The return is significant. It inspires confidence in the buyer/seller and helps people preventatively assess a situation involving a potential trade.

The problem is when something goes south, the immediate gut reaction is that "there needs to be a rule to address...problem x". The fact is that there usually doesn't need to be a rule. This is a good example.

We have a very good moderation staff here. When problems exist in trading situations, get a moderator involved. Work with someone on the staff to come to a mutually beneficial resolution. If you were scammed, let us know so that we can ban the scammer and work with law enforcement on a resolution. The analogy I like to use is when you have a leaky faucet in your house you fix the faucet. You don't remove all indoor plumbing. If you have a bad trade, you call in a moderator to help reconcile the issue. You don't necessarily create a rule to address all future trades/sales.

In this situation, you actually have several tools at your disposal. When you see something for sale, quote the original post. It'll show all the posts content. If someone changes it later, you'll know. If someone changes their terms later, it's transparent.

You can also take a screen shot and post it or save it for insurance. The moderation effort to implement rules regarding editing of initial posts in sales threads is going to be cumbersome and will likely lead to more aggravated posts regarding minor rule infractions and nitpicks than it will to anything productive. New members are also likely to be unclear and it's going to be a lot of explaining (over and over) the intent of a rule to cover something that rarely, if ever comes into play.

In the years this site has been active I can count on one hand the number of issues we've had involving sales threads. Most of those were handled by the moderator staff with relative ease. The expenditure of effort in this instance does not justify the value of the return.

In all cases, let the buyer beware. If something seems to good to be true, it usually is. If someone is hard to deal with, get moderators involved. Even in problem situations, engaging the moderator team will usually yield a positive resolution. If something seems shady, let the staff know so we can take action. If you think someone is changing sale terms in a thread for dishonest purpose, say something to us.

IMO, this isn't a situation that warrants wholesale changes to the rules of the site or the way the site is run. Just better dialog and engagement in problem situations between the buyer/seller/moderation team.

[Megatron]

Ok guys and gals,

Here is the deal:

(pieced together from one of crank's posts in the moderator forum)
Crankwalk was able to test the forum options and got it to send copies of threads being created in the BST area. This is done in real-time. The email contains a copy of the thread complete with URL links to pictures. We have rarely run into this problem so manual retrieval of the original post by mods (at a user's request) could work out just fine on a case by case basis. Copies of original posts are retrieable in several different ways (email copies, mods can view edited threads) so we could probably just go this route.

We hope this satisfies all.

-Nick